Bob Stevenson (
rstevenson) says:
1. Written by Guest, on 21-03-2005 04:42
Pardon the experiment in today's strip. At most, there are six lines in the last four panels. I wanted to play with the minimalist in me. You should see it before the color gets laid on. I really am quite proud, emotion in a line.
As a kid, I remember being fascinated with those minimalist Disney toons, the ones on the blackboard. Warner Brothers did a couple too. The great one, of couse was The Dot and the Line, but I don't recall much about it. I'm sure the teacher who showed us those films thought of it as a throw-away lesson, class in a can, but that world, even then, meant quite a bit to me. I think I was ready for Miro and Klee and Kandinsky pretty early in life, if only on a pretty superficial level. Artistically, simple things interest me greatly.
(Back on track) Not to the same levels of abstraction, but simplicity is part of what makes the first few pages of vir Bonus interesting. Full frontal architecture I guess we could call it.
-Bob Stevenson
2. Written by Guest, on 21-03-2005 14:55
First of all, thank you for the great review. It is pretty much spot on, but I thought I'd comment on a few thing.
The Story
The similarities with Harry Potter are undeniable, but I actually didn't have him in mind when I first thought up the characters. I am reasonably certain that I will be able to deviate from Potter as the story progresses. vir Bonus is/was actually intended as a number of short stories, which would allow me to test different styles and storytelling techniques. Somewhat unfortunately I decided to start with the retelling of how the main characters meet, which due to my slow pace is taking its sweet time.
The Art
A big reason for why I started the comic was, as noted, to learn. When just drawing, I would often avoid things I had difficulty with and backgrounds in general. The comic has partly been succesfull in this endeavour, but I still have a really hard time with children and I find myself far too often cutting corners in general.
Updates
I've been considering trying to increase my output to a page a week, this was not really an option to begin with since I was a lot slower then. But I have also considered doing an episode at a time, similar to William G.
The main speed problem is the colouring. I do it by trial and error until I have a result that I find acceptable, which is a bit time consuming. The next episode will likely be a simpler colouring or even grayscale, which I hope will save some time. I will probably try a weekly schedule starting April or May.
Thanks again for the great review, the critique is really helpfull in improving. And now I can finally go back to commenting on other posts here. I've been avoided it or done it anonymously, in order to not look like I was sucking up to get a good review. :)
3. Written by Guest, on 21-03-2005 14:55
And that was me, of course
//Erik Melander
4. Written by Guest, on 21-03-2005 18:06
Thanks for commenting. Issues surrounding participation have come up a couple of times. Once people submit their work, they either stop commenting until theirs runs or never begin so as not to bias my examination of their own work. This community isn't really big enough for that to be very helpful. I need help dealing with the strips and only a few people seem willing to comment. So while I understand the reasons people don't comment, I really wish they would. I've never made any claim to being some kind of neutral reveiwer. They're just some personal impressions of the work.
As a teacher, I learned early on to keep bias in check during the assessment process, not looking at names, grading one question at a time, being sure to finish in the same sitting. I understand the need for it in education, but at the same time, I never asked student to stop participating in class discussions until I'd finished with their latest batch of papers. The analogy's not perfect because I also wasn't asking them to participate in the grading, but this is not grading. My goal is to give people another way to get the word out there about their webcomics, a way that's more personal than the top lists, a way that builds energy through the cycle of feedback, maybe a way to build some excitement about their own work. I don't think there are enough people participating in the whole concept for it to work without creators commenting on other people's creations.
There's been some discussion of numbers and what they mean in another post. They're down today and I'm guessing it might be because many colleges are on Spring Break this week. It's either that or Friday's review drove people away in droves which it might have. Anyway, I'd love to hear somone else's feedback on vir Bonus, particularly in light of the author's clarification above.
-Bob Stevenson
5. Written by Guest, on 21-03-2005 19:12
Hmm. Let's see....
Slow update schedule, the whole thing being a learning experience artistically , the plot being very similar to something we already know with the promise of it being different eventually...
It sounds like it's troubles are similar to most Webcomics out there. That's not good but it's not bad either. That's sort of how I feel about V.B.
I agree with the general feel that this is a stepping stone or a first step to something better. I liked some parts of it, but didn't see some of the stuff that Bob got excited about.
It's not bad, it's just a promising french vanilla to me. I like it but the "check back in a few months/a year" sounds about right somehow.
Oh and Damn it Bob! Stop watching your hit counter! We've already discussed how unhealthy that is.
-Jared
6. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 02:45
I actually wasn't watching my own hit counter, but Eric's. He's got one posted at the bottom of the page so it seemed like a unique opportunity to see how many people were clicking through.
As for what I see in the strip, the worthwhile bits boil down to the two city-scapes and the panel showing all of the visitors.
I'm actually more disappointed with today's much-heralded Gossamer Commons by Eric Burns. I hope he turns it up a notch and quick. I do think I had unreasonably high expectations for it, maybe so high that I couldn't help but be disappointed.
-Bob Stevenson
7. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 02:58
Personally, I dont think Erik has enough of Vir Bonus up to comment on in any depth. We have to wait some more. when I reviewed Reman Mythology I had the same problem of trying to look at an incomplete work.
But I think the main thing he does have up on most webcomics is an active intention to get better as opposed to just tossing the first thing out of his pen on the web.
As for Gossamer Commons. He seems to be going for a longform comic as well. We'll have to wait for the end result.
-William G
8. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 02:59
Bob, what's it like being a real teacher? I'm just an English language babsitter.
-William G
9. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 03:28
Quote:
But I think the main thing he does have up on most webcomics is an active intention to get better as opposed to just tossing the first thing out of his pen on the web.
Can't it be both?
Or did you mean "just tossing the first thing out of your pen and declare it a finished product?" I think there's something to be said for sharing of imperfect speed art...I think it makes you accountable concerning your improvement. Or are you referring to most webcomics being "locked" into a particular style?
-jared
10. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 03:32
You're right. It is lots too young to say much about but to be fair, there's more to vir Bonus than Monty's gem and I found plenty to say there, heh.
I too have had days of feeling like a babysitter and they were amongst the most depressing of my life. I've read enough of your stuff on teaching to know there's more real teacher in you than you let on. Otherwise you wouldn't have written so passionately about it. What you lacked in PC, you made up for in genuine interest and honesty.
I've spent a good deal of these past eight months thinking about what it's like being a teacher and I don't know what to say. I miss it immensely. I got paid well to mess with kids heads in some important ways and I was completely humbled by it. I am even more humbled by it now that I am away from the classroom. I love hearing from former students, but I can't wait for my opportunity to work with the next group 'cause I know I can do even better.
I keep waiting for the day one of my former students submits a webcomic here. I'm sure some of them visit as this site used to contain the class web-pages. Some of it's still kicking around at: journeyintohistory.com/time, I think.
-Bob Stevenson
11. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 03:38
There's an artist who was paid quite a bit for a commission. When asked for the drawing, he took out a piece of paper and dashed something off rather quickly. When the patron questioned the time he'd spent on the piece, he said something to the effect of "thirty years."
I'm sure I got the story wrong. It may even be legendary. I'm thinking William forgot to throw in a "crappy" between the words "first" and "thing." Then again, I could be wrong all around on this one.
-Bob Stevenson
12. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 04:49
Unfortunately I've got about five minutes before I gotta hit the classroom, but I'll come back after work and clarify a few points I made.
-Bill
13. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 12:36
Quote:
Or did you mean "just tossing the first thing out of your pen and declare it a finished product?" .... Or are you referring to most webcomics being "locked" into a particular style?
Little bit of both.
I made mention of this over on
my own blog, but I've noticed that what happens for the most part is that webcartoonists improve only to the point where they produce work that is simply "acceptable" for the three seconds it take someone to read it before moving on to the next comic on their daily trawl.
I know this makes me seem like an elitist, but artistic and creative standards on the web are pretty low. And it's all because of the demand for daily updates.
Bob's story about the artist: I remember that it's about Picasso. He was doing an interview and while he was talking, he started drawing. When he was done, the reporter said, "Wow, just as I was sitting here, you created a masterpiece in twenty minutes!" To which Picasso replied, "No, this took me my whole life."
And that gets back to my complaint about the low standards of the web. few seem to be willing to put in the time and effort to master their artform. They just get better at producing smoother shits. The ability to use Photoshop to cover up flaws with gloss, or cut and paste, or ink with Flash. There are only a handfull of web creators that I feel certain will be the ones to be able to make the same claims Picasso did.
Bob: I think you've gone my route, but I cant remember, so... One of the things about teaching ESL here in Asia is that you do not need to be an actual teacher, trained and holding a B.Ed. or higher. I know that I'm here simply because of my Aryan good looks.
In a way, it relates to what I was saying abut webcomics. The standard for teachers here is also low because of a demand for instant gratification. It is depressing, but I can't complain because I am profiting from it.
And I guess that's one of the main reasons webcomic artists also overlook the low standards as well.
14. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 12:38
me... dar...
-William G
15. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 13:30
I've avoided talking much about my teaching life, more particularly of my personal philosophy of education. In art and webcomics, I'm fine with people putting out crap. Where the stakes are so low, let the free market rule.
In the classroom though, the same can't be allowed because the stakes are the highest, maybe not so much in overseas English classes where they are a supplement, but certainly in primary and secondary school. Most people involved with education realize there are serious problems with the system, in the US anyway. They even agree very generally about what the problems are, dropout rates, inconsistency, absenteeism, underfunding, and lack of standards and expectations. While some of the problems are related to the surrounding community, teachers and schools can only deal with what they have unless we're going to raise kids from day one. President Bush and co. have decided to go the route of unfunded mandates for standardized tests. Every group of kids must improve on standardized tests every year. This creates a factory mentality, but with states allowed to set their own standards, the quality of widgets produced is incredibly uneven. Meanwhile teacher preparation programs seem to be improving, but the quality of student who decides to become a teacher seems to be declining (low pay and low glamour, I guess.).
That doesn't mean they don't belong in the classroom. To me it means new teachers just need more help at becoming good teachers. I'm a huge fan of fairly intensive mentoring programs where a veteran teacher is given significant amounts of time (45 minutes+ a day) to work with teachers in their first few years. Connecticut has one such program, but it doesn't go far enough. Each new teacher is assigned a mentor, but beyond that the relationship is left up to schools. I've argued for common prep time and release time from duties, but neither is a recognized priority. To me though, a solid mentoring program is the least expensive tool for improvement. Think about the few really great teachers you had in life. Of the young ones, how many are still in the classroom (something around 50% of new teachers leave the profession in the first few years). Of the more experienced ones who were great, how many were engaged in active mentoring (I'm not talking student teaching, but beyond student teaching.)? The good stuff doesn't just get passed on through osmosis.
I also believe schools could retain some great teachers by providing in-house day care. Instead, too many great teachers leave once they have kids. It wouldn't even be very expensive as schools are already designed to deal with kids. Some inner-city schools have day-care to keep their students around. Why not take it one step further? Of course there are plenty of other issues, lots of student-centered ones, but mentoring is one that seems to me to be the cheapest and easiest to implement. New York City started a mentoring program this past year. They convinced 300 retired teachers to mentor the city's 6,000 new teachers. That's a 20:1 ratio and a sure-fire formula for failure. It's fine to ask students to do well on tests, but let's make sure they have great people in the classroom to get them there.
Oh, and yes, William, I did go your way. After teaching for six years in the US, I taught history at the American International School in Cyprus to student from forty different countries between 2001 and 2003. During that time, we travelled throughout much of the Middle East, Northern Africa and a bit of Southern Asia. It was the most important experience of my life and I hope to retire back to it some day. My classes were so small there, I'm sure I was able to get at least a year and a half of progress each year out of each student. Class size is another sure-fire way to excellence, but it's an expensive one so I don't dwell on it. In Cyprus, they could afford to keep class sizes down because they paid us very little in comparison to a US public school (less than half).
Sorry to ramble on, but standards loom large in my mind for teachers, not so much for artists.
-Bob Stevenson
16. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 17:15
Its true that there is really too little material in the comic to do much of a review of it, and I was of two minds about submitting it. I decided to do it, because frankly it's hard to get feedback on what you're doing. I posted it on the TAC critique forum and got an answer from one person. Other than that there really are no places to go. Penciljack, eatpoo and conceptart.org are all pretty big artforums, but unless you're really good you'll probably get few decent replies (who focus solely on the art). I also get the feeling that there is more egostroking than critiquing going on in those venues, but maybe I'm generallizing.
Anyway, that's why getting reviews like Bobs are really good when your aim is to develop.
//Erik Melander
17. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 18:36
The Talk About Comics critique forum was lively between two and three years ago. It began to die once you had to scroll way down to view it. Believe it or not it used to be at the top. Now it's two clicks and a long scroll away from the front page so I imagine it gets almost no traffic. I have found very few places to get a discussion/critique going. I even got banned from one forum for asking in the wrong area. It was my first post and overly obnoxious ban guaranteed it would be my last (a pm read something like "Banned moron". I did eventually get an apology from the mod. He'd had a bad day.
That was part of the reason for creating this format. I hope the comic at the top of each review puts us on something of the same level, and I hope the comments lead to some decent discussion. If I start getting too many submissions, maybe I should implement some kind of two-tier thing, a mini-discussion forum for instant feedback and the HB reviews for something more permanent. Of course forums require a good mod. and I've got enough on my plate. I agree there is and has been a need for a place where people feel invited to get advice and improve. That said, I have been happy with the folks at the buzzcomix.net forums. They're fair and detailed but not in your face. Just make sure you read the rules carefully before jumping in with a request for a crit. I still haven't really figured out how to ask for a strip crit, but the art crit's are pretty straightforward.
I just remembered where I started out and felt most welcome: Are the zwol forums still out there. There was a classy groupof posters. Cat Garza, Scott McCloud and I think even Joe Zabel used to hang out there. I got involved in some great jams and got loads of great advice.
If you stick around here, I invite you to submit your strip again in a year or so. I'd love to revisit strips, particularly if the creator is intent on improving because you will improve, lots if you've got it in your head to.
Good Luck Eric and please keep throwing your comments at these reviews.
-Bob Stevenson
18. Written by Guest, on 22-03-2005 21:44
Quote:
I still haven't really figured out how to ask for a strip crit, but the art crit's are pretty straightforward.
In the plug forum. It's the place for critiquing comics rather than art. Not heavily trafficked, but most comics gets at least a few responses. Mention you want a crit though, to try and avoid the comments that are nothing more than "hey, not bad!"
19. Written by Guest, on 23-03-2005 03:07
Zwol is just me, Eric Myers, and Greg with the occasional apprearance by others like Ryan Estrada.
Basically, the big boys like Cat and eMerl have moved on, and McCloud hasnt been producing comics that will bring the audience over to the forum.
I know Greg will typically comment if you leave a plug there.
You could ask for a crit at Buzz, but the people over the (mental) age of 18 are in the minority there .
-William G
20. Written by admin, on 23-03-2005 03:14
Aww. I'll have to drop in and say hi. It really was the best forum out there for a while.
-Bob Stevenson
Add a Comment:
Log In or
Register to post a comment! It's free!
Tooncast this comic on your own website by copying and pasting this code snippet:
<script language="javascript" src="http://www.webcomicsnation.com/tooncast.php?series=hbcomicblog"></script>
